NPR Interview

"From WHYY in Philadelphia this Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross and my guest today is
Julio Gamarti author of the book 'Baby God. It's the story of ficticious writer Albert Wilson who, while doing research for a a novel about the next terrorist attack on San Francisco, comes under investigation by the NSA and FBI. he is then subjected
to what is called a "lawful intercept" in which his online activities are monitored and scrutinized leading to questioning and a subsequent wrongful arrest. Welcome Julio and thanks for joining me today."

Julio: " Thanks for having me Terry. I'm a big fan of your program."

Terry: " Thank you. I want to start by asking about the book. It's is a book within a book, in other words the story is about the author Albert Wilson, yet it is also about a possible future terrorist attack. But in reality the story is also about you. How did you come up with the idea to write a story inside of another story?"

Julio: "Well, there are several things that caught my interest, one of them being an article I read in 'Wired' magazine about the NSA putting this equipment in an AT&T building in San Francisco. Plus I always like to peruse the newspaper and started reading news items about events in the Middle East, every day there's something new. And since 'Little Kabul' is located nearby, I began wondering about the possibility of the city coming to the attention of the NSA or CIA. I kept asking myself what if there were any terrorists secretly living here and plotting something."

Terry: " Not to pigeonhole you, but in a sense you are a conspiricy theorist, right?"

Julio: " Ha, well , for the purposes of writing this book, yeah, but for the most part, I can say I live my life without stressing over it, I think..."

Terry:" Actually, some critics have cause for concern. The book has raised fears of a lot of "What If?' scenarios as far another terrorist attack, and the idea that the government is spying on it's citizens has also raised the ire of some watchdog organizations. What do you think about that?"

Julio: "Yeah, the thing that is scary about the terrorist plot, is the fact that they are patient. If we learned anything from 911it's that these guys are patient, they plan meticulously for years, under the radar and then bang!, we get caught off guard."

Terry: "So what about the possibility that there are government agents running around, checking the results of their internet monitoring and in the case of your protagonist, they got it wrong. But it seems that the character Wilson was baiting them a little, don't you agree?"

Julio: " Well, yeah I guess you might say that he egged 'em on a bit. It became a cat and mouse game, , especially when he starts to let his mind expand and theorize about the possibility that he is being followed."
Terry: Let’s talk about your arrest. You became suspicious that surveillance of your online activities might be taking place. How did you come to that conclusion?”

Julio: “ I guessed that the right combination of Google inquiries and the physical locations were I was might prompt them to send out somebody to have a look at who they might be dealing with.”

Terry: “ So what sorts of things were you doing to keep them on the hook so to speak, and then you would try to throw them off, right?”

Julio: “Yeah, I would constantly drive around to different wifi locations, Starbucks, other mom and pop coffee places, maybe cruise around looking for an unprotected wireless coming from someone’s house. Just kept all over the place.”

Terry: “ Then you also made several visits to businesses that were run by Afghan immigrants. Did you know any of those people?”

Julio: “ No, not really. I chatted up a couple of ‘em, the baker who sold the flat breads, I asked about the origin of the bread, what sort of ethnic meals could I make to with the bread, that sort of thing.”

Terry: “You guessed that they were watching you at that time. So you would go from one of those businesses and then go park at the mosque?”

Julio: “ Yeah, I would park close to the mosque, get out of my car and go for a walk. Sometimes I would make preplanned phone calls on my cell to another known Afghan business just to stir the pot a little.”

Terry: “ Ok, by then you suspected that someone might be following you. What clues did you have that they were really doing that?”

Julio: “Well I started looking around every time I parked at any locations were I went online, or if I visited the immigrant store, and then I started taking pictures with my phone. I’d just put the phone to my head and then just started taking pictures of any cars with people close by and after a while I noticed a couple of vehicles I photographed in different locations. Then I tried to get faces, it’s kinda hard with a cell phone, but I got a few and there were a couple of matches.”

BREAK



Terry: “So, as a writer, while you were working on the book, during that time, would you ever become so engrossed in the story that you would lose touch with reality and start living in this scenario that you created?"

Julio: " Yeah, I did a little research each day, so the story was always on my mind. I write in a manner that one of my old art teachers called 'Holistic', in other words, when I was working on a painting, I was all over the canvas, working in layers, building up the painting, or moving from one item to another then back. In other words the plan
unfolds a little here, a little there. I didn't start at chapter one and plow straight through to the end."

Terry: " I want to ask you about that, so a lot of author's include things that happened to them in their stories. The little school boy Albert was you then, wasn't it?"

Julio:' Yeah, I remembered that grade school project, when we were doing California history. That Painting was on the blacktop for years."

Terry: " I saw some of your paintings, they are very interesting and diverse. Do you exhibit any of your art in a gallery?"

Julio: " No not really. I guess the only place to see my paintings are online or at the homes of friends and family that have a few of them hanging in their houses, assuming they haven't thrown 'em out, ha!"

Terry: "The character Albert was not really interested in giving his work away, yet you have done so?"

Julio: " Well, yeah I'd like to have sold more , make a living at it, but you're not worth anything til after you're dead so..."

Terry:" Well if you want to give any more away and can't find any takers let me know. Hmmm, I want to ask about the 'Little Kabul' connection. There isn't a whole lot of information available about the people that have settled there in Fremont. Why do you think they chose that city as opposed to another?"

Julio: "Fremont had an influx of foreigners back in the 80's, actually if you want to go back, from pre-history, there were the Ohlones, the Spanish and Mexicans, then the gold miners from around the world, up until today. If you go to some parts of Fremont or San Jose, you'd think you were across the Pacific."


Terry: "I understand that there is a quite varied mix of nationalities there. There is a large contingent from India, as well as the largest collection Afghan expatriates and immigrants. In your book, you make it sound as though the government made the decision for them. What about that?”

Julio: “ Yeah, that’s based on some speculation. I had a neighbor that worked for the state department, and he was always moving around the world, and shortly after he moved on , a family from India bought the house. Now these people work at what are considered pretty low paying jobs, and the price of real estate being what is was at the time, before the mortgage meltdown, made me wonder where they got the money to buy the place.”

Terry: “ So, being the conspiracy theorist that you are, you surmised that your ex neighbor had something to do with their being able to afford a house there. Do you really suspect that your new neighbors might be ex-mujahideen from Afghanistan?”

Julio:” Well they said they were from India, then I started to think, what if they really weren’t, that they were from Afghanistan , and then the wheels started turning.”

Terry: “ So you created the character Farzad on your imaginative suspicions. Are you friendly with the family?”

Julio: “ Well, um, not really, I mean I’ve gone over there a couple of times when they had a problem with their stove top or something.”

Terry: “ Some people have said that you have unfairly portrayed the Afghan immigrants, and Moslems in general as future terrorists. Could you comment on that.”

Julio: ‘ Yeah, it can be a bit sticky, if you look at it from a logical perspective, I mean real Boolean algebra, draw the logic circles out, and show the circle of all the believers of Islam in one circle, then all the rest of the world’s citizens and the circle that contains the terrorists resides inside the circle of Islamists. I didn’t make this stuff up. There are some other’s out there who have come up with this stuff. Lots of government think tanks have gone done this road already. They just don’t like to publicize it, bad press…”

Terry:’ “ The book talks about the Imam character’s inflammatory rhetoric. Have you actually been to a mosque to witness this sort of preaching?”

Julio: “ Not exactly, I have been inside the mosque, but I didn’t stay long enough to hear the preacher. I was a bit leery of getting too involved. But I have accounts of the preachers in mosques in the middle east with Imams like the one in the book”

Terry: “ Were they trying to proseletize you?”

Julio: “ No, actually I tried not to stay too long.”


Terry: “ Ok, let’s talk about the internet and telephone surveillance. You talk about the monitoring equipment inside an AT&T building. It seems you’ve raised a few hackles with some of the descriptions about the system’s capabilities. Citizen watchdog groups like Electronic Frontier Foundation are citing your work as confirmation of what some have suspected all along. Do you think that you’ve given them a platform to stand on?”

Julio: “I think so, although remember this is fiction. I think the capabilities they have could be used to create a highly unpleasant environment if the government were to turn really bad, you know, spying on the citizens like 1984.”

Terry: “So in the book, you state that the NSA can render the captured data into real time web pages, read emails, find out addresses and catch people in the act. This has really stirred up a lot of controversy. There are accusations flying that someone stole some of the Narus’s software and you were given a sample of it. Is that true?”

Julio: “ No, not really, the company that makes the equipment and software put a lot of information about it’s capabilities on the net, and so I just reinterpreted what they said in
In terms that were more readable, and then found a couple of Torrent sites that had some of their info available and voila, I got a story.”

Terry: “ If it is possible that the government makes all of the data public, or rather that they allow corporations to have the data for the purpose of studying internet use in order to help them decide what products to market, it’s possible that some of that information could potentially be an embarrassment to someone. Do you think that might happen ?”

Julio: “ It happens now, with the marketing ads that are displayed on some of the web pages you visit. All your past visits are tracked by IP address and mac address, they know your machine and your location.”

Terry: “So by machine you mean your computer? OK just wanted to clarify that. So you’re saying that they know where you are actually located, like your home address or if you’re at a Starbucks or some place with WI-FI?”

Julio: “ Yup, it’s scary, especially if they think you’re up to something, based on their target criteria. You might be doing research for a book , the next thing you know your on their radar, then maybe some guys muscle you into the back seat of a car, put a hood on your head…”

Terry: “ More theorizing, (Ha!) I want to talk about the dream Albert has. He has the dream, a nightmare really, then he starts thinking about it daily. Why the torment?”

Julio: “ Well, his character is fairly laid back about things, he never cared about politics, he was insulated from the wars, just a product of the late 60s and 70s, grew up minding his own business, then bang, the dream and a few encounters around town with the bad guys and he’s stressed a bit, he’s the one who turns into the conspiracy theorist.”

Terry: “ I don’t want to give the ending away, but I suppose if someone wants to turn to the last chapter they could do that if they wanted, but Albert’s worst nightmare comes true. And most authors might not want their protagonist to well, you might want to preserve the character for another story. Is that what you have in mind?”

Julio: “ Yeah, maybe, I ‘m not sure how to go about it yet? I need to go for a few more long walks before I start writing the sequel. I think a film might be better right now. if I can sell it to someone. Might be nice to be able to buy the DVD.”

Terry: “ Well that’s entirely possible. ” Well Julio, I want to thank you for being with us today, my guest has been Julio Gamarti author of the book “Baby God” and this is Terry Gross with Fresh Air.